Europe, not just Ukraine, is at war
A conversation with historian and essayist Andriy
Portnov
It is not only events in eastern Ukraine and the Greek
crisis that will force the European Union to reinvent itself, argues Andriy
Portnov, but also domestic political landscapes in Germany, the United Kingdom
and France. The sum of all of these factors will force change.
Ketevan Kantaria: Europe received plenty of
epithets at the recent forum "Europe with a view to the future"; one
such was Janusz Lewandowski's comment that Europe is seen as a "continent
of mistrust". How much trust is left in Ukrainian society for Europe and,
more specifically, the European Union?
Andriy Portnov: A sociological study would give
a detailed answer to that question. My own intuition tells me that now in
Ukraine there's more understanding for the reality of the EU than during the
Maidan. A lot of people are aware of the fact that the EU has no real offer for
Ukraine right now. And that is a problem. Then of course there is the question
of trust. If Ukraine has no clear perspective of EU membership, the next
question should be: what's next? What is the alternative? There is no
alternative. At least I do not see any alternative in Ukrainian debates about
the political future of the country.
KK: We already know the outcome of last month's 4th Eastern Partnership Summit in Riga, so could we say that this too was a big disappointment for Ukrainian society and government; or it was more or less expected?
AP: Personally for me it was not surprising at all. I would say that the summit was an illustration of a lack of any clear EU strategy for Ukraine. Even the visa-free travel agreement is unclear. So I would say the Ukrainian political class should start getting more realistic about the EU.
KK: How helpful would visa liberalization be?
AP: Let me express it from a personal perspective. I am someone who is engaged in a lot of international projects for the last ten years. My own experience with getting Schengen and other visas is full of unpleasant and humiliating episodes. However, I have no delusions. Even a year ago I said that it is unrealistic to expect a positive decision on visa-free travel. What is more, I think right now we are in a situation when the entire Schengen agreement could change because of the immigration issues within the EU.
KK: In that case, would you say that Europe is digging its own grave?
AP: I think we are facing a situation where the EU and NATO as we know them are coming to an end. They need to re-invent and re-imagine themselves. But it is a huge question whether and how they would manage to do that.
KK: German playwright Bertolt Brecht famously warned that "the war is over, beware of the peace!" Has Europe overestimated the post-Cold war "peace" and lost control over its geopolitical presence in the face what is happening now in Ukraine?
AP: First of all there is no peace. Europe, not just Ukraine, is at war, even if not everybody is aware or wants to accept this truth. There are numerous reasons for the outbreak of violence. First, the development in post-communist Europe was partly unexpected, pretty complex and controversial. It appears that the ruling class in Russia is making an attempt to reconfigure the international order. It started with Georgia, let's not forget about that. Then there was Crimea and Donbas. When it happened it was a shock and a misunderstanding because, I dare say that, up until now, many European politicians have not properly understand the situation. I think we are facing an attempt to change the entire legal and political order, questioning existing borders, international organizations and rules.
KK: This brings us to the question of business relations between the EU and Russia which also plays a role...
AP: This is very much the issue – economic ties. One of the most important presumptions of Vladimir Putin is that because of economic ties the EU will do nothing. It is time for the EU, as well as NATO, to show their strength and motivation. And speaking about the economy, let's be frank: present-day Russia depends on the export of energy, gas and oil, which mostly goes to the EU. One could also say that Russia is more dependent on the EU, but the perception is vice versa, which in economic terms is false.
Also, let us not forget that in Ukraine and Georgia a large part of population is pro-European – and Europe as a whole has shown little interest in this. Maybe it is reasonable for Georgia and Ukraine to show what the EU could lose by not paying enough attention to the post-Soviet states that really want to be European.
KK: How could they do that?
AP: In my opinion, the only way forward is the reinvention of the EU. It will not be just the changes brought with the war in Ukraine, but also the referendum in the United Kingdom, immigration issues, economic problems in Greece, the eurozone, election results in France and so on. It will be the sum of these factors that will force the EU to change itself.
KK: Do you see a lead country that could guide this re-imagination of the EU?
AP: Objectively that is Germany. That was clear already in early 1990s. There is a very good article by Tony Judt about the future of EU called "Europe: The Grand Illusion". It was written in 1996, before Poland and other eastern European states joined, and it clearly states that the future of the EU depends on Germany and I agree with that. That is why I see one of the biggest problems as Germany's indecisiveness and its lack of desire to be a leader of the EU... read more:
KK: We already know the outcome of last month's 4th Eastern Partnership Summit in Riga, so could we say that this too was a big disappointment for Ukrainian society and government; or it was more or less expected?
AP: Personally for me it was not surprising at all. I would say that the summit was an illustration of a lack of any clear EU strategy for Ukraine. Even the visa-free travel agreement is unclear. So I would say the Ukrainian political class should start getting more realistic about the EU.
KK: How helpful would visa liberalization be?
AP: Let me express it from a personal perspective. I am someone who is engaged in a lot of international projects for the last ten years. My own experience with getting Schengen and other visas is full of unpleasant and humiliating episodes. However, I have no delusions. Even a year ago I said that it is unrealistic to expect a positive decision on visa-free travel. What is more, I think right now we are in a situation when the entire Schengen agreement could change because of the immigration issues within the EU.
KK: In that case, would you say that Europe is digging its own grave?
AP: I think we are facing a situation where the EU and NATO as we know them are coming to an end. They need to re-invent and re-imagine themselves. But it is a huge question whether and how they would manage to do that.
KK: German playwright Bertolt Brecht famously warned that "the war is over, beware of the peace!" Has Europe overestimated the post-Cold war "peace" and lost control over its geopolitical presence in the face what is happening now in Ukraine?
AP: First of all there is no peace. Europe, not just Ukraine, is at war, even if not everybody is aware or wants to accept this truth. There are numerous reasons for the outbreak of violence. First, the development in post-communist Europe was partly unexpected, pretty complex and controversial. It appears that the ruling class in Russia is making an attempt to reconfigure the international order. It started with Georgia, let's not forget about that. Then there was Crimea and Donbas. When it happened it was a shock and a misunderstanding because, I dare say that, up until now, many European politicians have not properly understand the situation. I think we are facing an attempt to change the entire legal and political order, questioning existing borders, international organizations and rules.
KK: This brings us to the question of business relations between the EU and Russia which also plays a role...
AP: This is very much the issue – economic ties. One of the most important presumptions of Vladimir Putin is that because of economic ties the EU will do nothing. It is time for the EU, as well as NATO, to show their strength and motivation. And speaking about the economy, let's be frank: present-day Russia depends on the export of energy, gas and oil, which mostly goes to the EU. One could also say that Russia is more dependent on the EU, but the perception is vice versa, which in economic terms is false.
Also, let us not forget that in Ukraine and Georgia a large part of population is pro-European – and Europe as a whole has shown little interest in this. Maybe it is reasonable for Georgia and Ukraine to show what the EU could lose by not paying enough attention to the post-Soviet states that really want to be European.
KK: How could they do that?
AP: In my opinion, the only way forward is the reinvention of the EU. It will not be just the changes brought with the war in Ukraine, but also the referendum in the United Kingdom, immigration issues, economic problems in Greece, the eurozone, election results in France and so on. It will be the sum of these factors that will force the EU to change itself.
KK: Do you see a lead country that could guide this re-imagination of the EU?
AP: Objectively that is Germany. That was clear already in early 1990s. There is a very good article by Tony Judt about the future of EU called "Europe: The Grand Illusion". It was written in 1996, before Poland and other eastern European states joined, and it clearly states that the future of the EU depends on Germany and I agree with that. That is why I see one of the biggest problems as Germany's indecisiveness and its lack of desire to be a leader of the EU... read more:
